SUB GENRES

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Re: SUB GENRES

by jiri » Wed May 17, 2017 7:44 am

I'm certainly open to any suggestion. I guess that many users will have different opinion, as genres aren't strictly defined.

As for the choice of 2 levels - the idea is to add some organization structure, while not making the whole thing overly complicated from usage or configuration point of view. Re. 'Rock-pop' - I'd expect it to be both in Rock and Pop categories.

As for more complex relations, like 'derivative' and 'influence', I see the point, the idea of writing just one entry to Genre field, which covers e.g. 5-6 genres sounds reasonable. I don't like the fact that this isn't standardized in any way. We've always tried to make MM open and to work well with other apps. In this case, if you start relying on some MM-specific genre configuration, it won't work well with 3rd party apps that don't have such a feature. Isn't this of a concern to you? Or would some optional writing of all the related genres to tags help?

Jiri

Re: SUB GENRES

by skrutm » Tue May 16, 2017 1:47 pm

My suggestion is namespace like genres:
jazz
jazz.vocal
jazz.latin
jazz.latin.instrumentall
jazz....

Re: SUB GENRES

by New new wave » Sun May 07, 2017 3:07 pm

jiri wrote:I'd like to get a Genre Categories implementation to MM5, tracked as http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=14214.

Jiri
Why did you ask for just only two levels?
It doesn't make much sense from a musicological point of view.
How do you categorize then fusion styles like "rock-pop"? as rock or as pop?
What about "drone metal"? avant-garde, ambient or heavy metal? or maybe just "rock"?
And how about "dark wave"? gothic rock? new wave? shoegaze? or maybe just "rock" again?
Let me make it clear - there is no clear hierarchy of music genres.

I actually reasoned in a very long post why binding actual dependencies between genres to define their relations is much more practical, correct and useful than a fixed hierarchical order of genres that works only one-way, and even worse if limited to just two levels...

Re: SUB GENRES

by Guest » Sun May 07, 2017 5:54 am

The name of the Forum is MediaMonkey 4 for Windows < Wishlist, but not MM5. If you do not want to upgrade MM4 anymore, why don't you lock this forum? What is the point having two Wishlist forums?

Re: SUB GENRES

by jiri » Fri May 05, 2017 5:43 am

I'd like to get a Genre Categories implementation to MM5, tracked as http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=14214.

Jiri

Re: Genre dependency/derivative definitions.

by MMFrLife » Mon May 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Lispwave wrote:I would rather try to embrace your method than switching back to MB, to be honest.
Stay tuned and I will spill the deets on my Genre/styles method. It's flexible and reasonably simple to follow. :wink:

Re: Genre dependency/derivative definitions.

by New new wave » Mon May 01, 2017 1:40 pm

MMFrLife wrote:Does Musicbee rely on an online communication to id subgenres?
AFAIK - No. You have to describe the actual dependencies at the settings of MB.
but you do get a default setting of sub-genres when you install MB which I found to be somewhat inaccurate and a bit superficial missing many important genres, fusion styles and specific scenes.
MMFrLife wrote:I get into the subgenres thing too, but I use a custom field to write the associations out in a list/tag like form, simply,
something like "(R) PRG" in Genre, and in a custom field, all the fused elements associated with that album and/or song
"jazz, funk, classical". I would then use playlist, collection, Magic Nodes to filter what I want.
I don't, I just use the standard "genre" tag, and it is exhausting, I would rather try to embrace your method than switching back to MB, to be honest.
MMFrLife wrote:It's a bit of a pain to list/tag out all of them, but I would also want them all "saved" to a tag and not have to rely on online connection.
Even if online tags them for me, chances are it wouldn't do it exactly how I wanted it, anyway.
I know... I use GenreFinder with a very strict whitelist setting, and only to get hints, I then filter manually what I think is appropriate for each song.
Last.fm has plenty of misleading tags regarding genres and music styles, I wouldn't rely on it blindly. I also check out information on Rate Your Music, it is highly reliable and very accurate there.

Sorry for the late reply btw... I felt like nobody even cares when I posted the thread, so I left the forum.

Re: Genre dependency/derivative definitions.

by MMFrLife » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:30 am

Can you elaborate?

Does Musicbee rely on an online communication to id subgenres?

I get into the subgenres thing too, but I use a custom field to write the associations out in a list/tag like form, simply,
something like "(R) PRG" in Genre, and in a custom field, all the fused elements associated with that album and/or song
"jazz, funk, classical". I would then use playlist, collection, Magic Nodes to filter what I want.
It's a bit of a pain to list/tag out all of them, but I would also want them all "saved" to a tag and not have to rely on online connection.
Even if online tags them for me, chances are it wouldn't do it exactly how I wanted it, anyway.

Genre dependency/derivative definitions.

by New new wave » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:35 pm

The feature I wish MM actually had is being able to define dependencies between specific genres like in MB.
The two most important relations between genres are being derivatives and influences.
The "derivative" relation indicates the parent/origin of a genre, while an "influence" refers to secondary influences and fusions from other musical styles that are not necessarily related to its stylistic origin.

The reason I think it is important to let the user define these relations between genres is because it helps to organize a library, query auto-playlists, and results in a more consistent and clean tagging for the genre field.

The actual utility of this feature is that it lets you render songs with a very specific genre in other queries that look for their actual stylistic origins and broader genres instead of their exact specific genre.

It helps a lot when you have like 250 different genres as a result of carefully tagging each song in your library accurately for the exact micro-sub-genre it really belongs to at the deepest level.

Typical examples include: "Rock → punk → new wave → dark wave → ethereal wave"
Say I have a playlist that looks up for "new wave" songs, and since "ethereal wave" is a derivative of a derivative of "new wave", it should look up for that song as well, although the genre "new wave" was not mentioned in its "genre" field and nor "dark wave", but only "ethereal wave".

In this case, the value "ethereal wave" should be equivalent to "Rock; punk; new wave; dark wave; ethereal wave" when looking up for genres. It leaves the genre field way shorter, clearer and maintainable.

And it becomes even more useful when it relates influences and fusions, there are fusions almost between every two major genres, and especially in electronic and rock genres. For example, the results of "crossover thrash" should be relevant equally for both "thrash metal" and "hardcore punk", Although thrash would rather be derived from something else like NWOBHM in the chronological sense of hierarchical dependency and origin, and having to mention both of them in every actual "crossover" song would just make the "crossover" label completely redundant to specify the fusion.

Why is having to describe every time repetitively like 5-6 stylistic origins in each song, is more elegant than just binding the relations between those genres once and for all? It would be way more consistent, every "symphonic black metal" entry is also a "rock" entry at the end of the day, but mentioning both in each entry feels wrong to me, just think of it... and put on a note that MusicBee actually already offers this exact feature, why is MM still behind with that?

Re: SUB GENRES

by dtsig » Wed May 07, 2014 2:03 pm

Yes .. err thank you.

Re: SUB GENRES

by ZvezdanD » Tue May 06, 2014 10:43 am

First of all, MediaMonkey supports many audio and video formats and many of them have tagging systems different than ID3, e.g. OGG or APE.

Secondly, MediMonkey has 3 different places where those separators exist and those 3 places have independent separators that could be different: 1) database, 2) GUI, 3) tags in files. For example, separators between items in the fields in database are always the same ("; "), not matter which is the format of the file (it would be unpractical if it is otherwise). Also, users could chose their own separator for display in the GUI (the filelist, Properties dialog, ...) modifying the related option in the Options dialog, but separators in database and in tags will not change, again because of practical reasons.

MediaMonkey is just doing mappings on-the-fly. For example: you specify "|" as separator in MM options and type "Item1 | Item2" in some field; MediMonkey will store that as "Item1; Item2" in the database and as "Item1\x00Item2" in the file's tag (if the \x00 is the item's separator declared for such files).

If you choose "; " to use as separator in GUI then you would have the same separator in GUI and database, but it would be still different than the separator used in MP3 file's tags that follow ID3 standard.

All of that is true for multi-item MM fields. For all other fields that are not multi-item, the separator that you see and use in GUI would be written in the database and file's tags as such, e.g. "Item1 | Item2".

You could specify whatever string as separator for Split by qualifier of Magic Nodes, but it should be the same as it is used in the corresponding field of the database.

Re: SUB GENRES

by dtsig » Tue May 06, 2014 10:02 am

ZvezdanD your reply surprises me .. I had thought that I read that the ';' was converted to a null character per the id3 specification. If this is true then that means that MM leaves any space character when it writes it out which would seem to NOT be a good idea as the standard doesn't talk about a space character. Am I reading your reply correctly?
Thanks

Re: SUB GENRES

by ZvezdanD » Tue May 06, 2014 9:42 am

Magic Nodes has drag & drop, but it currently works only when the target node is some simple field with displayed its full content, i.e. it doesn't work when the target node has only part of the field created with SubStr/Trim/Split by/Left of or Right of qualifiers. Such functionality is on ToDo list.

Split by qualifier works fine with the ";" (or any other) string specified as separator, but there is one very important thing with that qualifier: the ";" and "; " are two different separators. If you use "; " between items in multi-item fields (with the space character after ";"), then you need to specify the same string as separator for Split by qualifier. That also means that you need to use uniformly the same string as separator in all files if you want correctly displayed split nodes in Magic Nodes. You could make that easily with RegExp Find & Replace add-on and its two presets: "Add space character after ";" separator in multi-item <Into field> if missing" and "Remove space character after ";" separator in multi-item <Into field>".

Re: SUB GENRES

by Friedrich » Tue May 06, 2014 1:12 am

Magic Nodes split function is nice for displaying subgenres,
but lacks one feature for organizing them: drag & drop.
And as far as I can see, MM's option to use multiple genres for the same tracks by using the ";" delimiter is lost.
Using 503 genres in hierarchies of up to more than six steps deep makes a built-in solution
very desirable..

Re: SUB GENRES

by FLWB » Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:25 pm

Thanks Lowlander my first reaction to an add-on with 143 pages of comments, maybe it's not an ideal solution compared to an inherent function.

But I'll give a shot.

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