A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

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Ludek
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Ludek »

"filter matches" vs "scroll to matches" returns a different result set
Filter matches returns values where the beginning of a word matches the string, and the scroll option does not
ie. search on "thousand" ... the filter option includes a tag value of 'thousandS', but it is not matched in the scroll variant
For me it does find, e.g. the track with title "two thousands" is scrolled upon typing "thousand".
But as I have already typed, scroll to matches isn't supposed to work the same way as filter matches.
This is going to work as in MM4 (related to https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=15077 - see item a) there
When user focuses a list-view then it always scrolls to the first file/track where the search phrase is within title of the track. When user sorts the file list by artist then it scrolls to the place where tracks from this artist are.
So this is most probably the difference? i.e. your tracklist was sorted by the other attribute/column?
I got a crash: C4916A1D
Thanks, will be fixed.
Barry4679
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:40 am So this is most probably the difference? i.e. your tracklist was sorted by the other attribute/column?
I am not sure, but that sounds likely.

Ludek wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:40 am When user focuses a list-view then it always scrolls to the first file/track where the search phrase is within title of the track. When user sorts the file list by artist then it scrolls to the place where tracks from this artist are.
I suppose that this is a good thing ... my concern is that MM is getting more and more complex.

IMO if the "scroll" search works this way, then it would be more consistent if the "filter" search worked that way also. ... I don't know how a new MM5 user is supposed to deduce all the various behaviours and quirks.
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by pbryanw »

Barry4679 wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:30 am IMO if the "scroll" search works this way, then it would be more consistent if the "filter" search worked that way also. ... I don't know how a new MM5 user is supposed to deduce all the various behaviours and quirks.
I suppose that's my only concern too - will MM5 users (especially new ones, who haven't used the extension this is based on) - know that they can click in the current tree to do an incremental search?

I'm also wondering how this approach compares to using the existing search box, then having the ability to toggle between "filter matches" and "scroll to matches" for it in MM settings? I guess the advantage of having both types of search, is that you don't have to choose between them. You can pick the one that works best for you, without going into settings, and use whichever search works best for your current needs.
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Ludek »

Hi, I agree that it is unclear for the novice users how to switch from "filter matches" to "scroll to matches".
If I understand correctly you are suggesting that clicking into the view (focusing) should always perform "scroll to matches" and having a node selected in media tree should perform "filter matches" ?
I guess this won't work:
- when media tree is hidden and user navigates just using view (e.g. touch mode)
- when "showAllNodes" addon is installed and "scroll to matches" is performed also on media tree (so that user can scroll into a concrete artist when expanding Music > Artist)

But maybe we could add menu button next to the search bar with a link to Options > Search and/or radio buttons for "scroll to matches" and "filter matches"

Re-opened as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 077#c51040
Barry4679
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:51 pm But maybe we could add menu button next to the search bar with a link to Options > Search and/or radio buttons for "scroll to matches" and "filter matches"
That would be better, but that Options page needs an upgrade IMO.

My point is that a toggle between "search: filter matches" and "search:scroll to matches" is more complex than it appears.

How is anyone going to deduce that that one is a full text search, which can be limited by the checkbox list of tags, and you can use a macro syntax to define search criteria (eg "genre:jazz") ... and the other is a single fixed column search, unless you happen to be sorted on one specific magic column, and in this case the column that is searched is that other column?, .. and the list of check boxes don't apply to this mode, and the search macro syntax is not available either

The option page should have a link to an online help screen, illustrating the whole MM5 search filtering environment ... something like this Google option page
https://www.dropbox.com/s/22qp7njjwtv4d ... e.png?dl=0

There are several quirks to get to grips with re MM5 searching & filtering. A help page is required:
  • you can search just by typing ... there is no need to click the search magnifying glass icon ... in fact you probably don't want to click that icon, because it doesn't just search, it also (surprise!) navigates away from your current Media Tree node
  • you can filter either by Funnel or Magnifying Glass Search when search mode="filter matches" ... and Funnel filter and Magnifying filter can both be used together
  • unlike the Magnifying Glass, the Funnel filter icon doesn't cause navigation away from your current Media Tree node
  • and that funnel filter is the more powerful option of the two options; And|Or support for criteria, ... and data entry assistance from multi-choice lists ...
    and criteria lines can be temporarily toggled off|on ...and prior filter specifications can be restored from archived history
  • but the magnifying glass is also more powerful than it initially appears ... it is bit tricky to trigger their appearance, but there is a tool tip of syntax options, and a drop down list of previous search string
  • Funnel filter mode can be closed by the little "funnel_icon&x" which appears in the tool bar breadcrumbs ... but with magnifying filters there is no "x' ... so your click-to-clear option is by clicking on the magnifying icon on the far right side, even though you probably didn't use to open search mode in the first place .... and if you tried doing the equivalent action in funnel filter mode, it wouldn't clear the filter specification, it would just close the filter specification panel, but the filter would remain active
  • and there is another search mode, which is more like a power scroll, but is hard coded for just two of the columns
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by pbryanw »

Ludek wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:51 pm But maybe we could add menu button next to the search bar with a link to Options > Search and/or radio buttons for "scroll to matches" and "filter matches"

Re-opened as https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 077#c51040
Hi, firstly, thanks for your help with this. Regarding search, I'd just like to clarify my thoughts on this:

Looking at incremental search, it can be toggled between "filter matches" & "scroll to matches", works on two columns, and is activated by typing into the currently selected tree or node, and its search is confined to the current view (I think). This search appears to be built for people using touch-screen devices.

Normal search (what I will call desktop search), is activated by typing into the top-right search box. It can also be used to search multiple columns (specified in options). When you do a search using this box, it produces a list of filtered results, and always searches your whole music library. When you click on a search result - only songs related to your search term are entered into the Playing songlist.

My personal preference would be for desktop search to work a bit like it does iTunes. So that when you type your search term, it produces a list of filtered results. However, once you click on a search result, the rest of your music library is entered into the Playing songlist to continue playing after this song. I don't know if an option to switch between desktop search as it stands now, which only plays the results of your search, and the one I've just outlined, could be considered for MM5?

I'm not very good at detailing and thinking about the technical details - I think Barry4679 is far better at this & pointing out how search could be improved.

Other small search quirks I've noticed:
  • Incremental search is caps lock sensitive - HELLO is parsed differently to hello - would it be better if it was caps lock agnostic?
  • When I select a playlist node - and use incremental search - it works as expected, and is confined to the selected playlist. However if I'm in a playlist node and use desktop search, my search results aren't confined to this playlist, and it always searches the whole library. This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Barry4679 »

Maybe I am adding to confusion, as I don't know exactly how things work. I only know what i have deduced. But due to time zones I am awake, and MM Devs are not, so I will have a stab at this.

pbryanw wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:30 am Looking at incremental search, it can be toggled between "filter matches" & "scroll to matches", works on two columns, and is activated by typing into the currently selected tree or node, and its search is confined to the current view (I think). This search appears to be built for people using touch-screen devices.
.. [snip] ..
Normal search (what I will call desktop search), is activated by typing into the top-right search box. It can also be used to search multiple columns (specified in options). When you do a search using this box, it produces a list of filtered results, and always searches your whole music library.
.. [snip] ..
However if I'm in a playlist node and use desktop search, my search results aren't confined to this playlist, and it always searches the whole library. This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.
when you type into the "current View":
  • you get the "two column" behaviour if search is configured for "scroll to matches"
  • or you get the "search multiple columns (specified in options)" behaviour if search is configured to "filter matches"
So which columns are searched, is controlled by the search config option, not by where you type.

The right hand "desktop search" is the same thing (I think); but is not confined by your current view, it searches your whole database.

I agree that search by typing into the current view probably is good for touch devices ... I can't check because I don't have that kind of device .... but it is also available on traditional devices ... it is a quick way to start a search, because you don't have to click anything first... and it is the best way, because the search is constrained by your current view

There is no icon to trigger a view-constrained search ... you just need to know (somehow) that MM5 has this "just start typing" behaviour, which is another quirk that could lead to confusion IMO ... but maybe this is a new generally accepted behaviour, in the Apple-world or somewhere, that I am not aware of (?)
pbryanw wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:30 am However, once you click on a search result, the rest of your music library is entered into the Playing songlist to continue playing after this song. I don't know if an option to switch between desktop search as it stands now, which only plays the results of your search, and the one I've just outlined, could be considered for MM5?
I guess that they will know what you are talking about. But I don't have iTunes, so I don't.

By the "rest of your music library is entered into the Playing songlist" you mean the rest of the album? ... or the rest of playlist you are viewing? ... so you want a "Play from here" option added to the right click menu? ... so that if I had found track 3 of an album or a playlist, it would queue all tracks from track 3 onward? ... sounds a good thing.

Sorry if I just added to the confusion.

pbryanw wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:30 am Incremental search is caps lock sensitive - HELLO is parsed differently to hello
As far as I know all search is case insensitive by default, or it should be. ... you can make a search become case sensitive using the syntax that is displayed in their tool tip ... the tool tip can be hard to trigger ... here is an image in case you have not seen it
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b501fp6hoymvn ... p.png?dl=0
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by pbryanw »

Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm Maybe I am adding to confusion, as I don't know exactly how things work. I only know what i have deduced. But due to time zones I am awake, and MM Devs are not, so I will have a stab at this.
Thanks for this post - I greatly appreciate your help with this.
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm when you type into the "current View":
  • you get the "two column" behaviour if search is configured for "scroll to matches"
  • or you get the "search multiple columns (specified in options)" behaviour if search is configured to "filter matches"
So which columns are searched, is controlled by the search config option, not by where you type.
Got it - so only when contextual search (typing in a view) is set to "scroll to matches" does it work on "two columns". When it's set to "filter matches" it works just like "desktop search".
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm There is no icon to trigger a view-constrained search ... you just need to know (somehow) that MM5 has this "just start typing" behaviour, which is another quirk that could lead to confusion IMO ... but maybe this is a new generally accepted behaviour, in the Apple-world or somewhere, that I am not aware of (?)
Yep, I wonder if this makes more sense on tablets, or mobile devices? On a desktop PC, typing into a view to search isn't commonplace in apps (I think). However, once I'd used search this way in MM5, I could easily remember how to do it next time. I think it just needs to be made more discoverable.
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm By the "rest of your music library is entered into the Playing songlist" you mean the rest of the album? ... or the rest of playlist you are viewing? ... so you want a "Play from here" option added to the right click menu? ... so that if I had found track 3 of an album or a playlist, it would queue all tracks from track 3 onward? ... sounds a good thing.
Having "a Play from here" option added to the right-click menu sounds like a great solution to this problem. So, if you type "hello" into search and choose a song, it continues playing the rest of the album, playlist or tree you're viewing, rather than a list of songs, artists or albums featuring "hello" (depending on which fields you've chosen to include in search).
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm Sorry if I just added to the confusion.
No, quite the opposite, thank you very much for your post - it's helped me understand how search currently works in MM5.
Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm As far as I know all search is case insensitive by default, or it should be. ... you can make a search become case sensitive using the syntax that is displayed in their tool tip ... the tool tip can be hard to trigger ... here is an image in case you have not seen it
Hi, I think incremental search (typing in a view) is case sensitive when set to "scroll to matches". At least, it seems to be for me - are you able to reproduce?
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Ludek »

Barry4679 wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:56 pm By the "rest of your music library is entered into the Playing songlist" you mean the rest of the album? ... or the rest of playlist you are viewing? ... so you want a "Play from here" option added to the right click menu? ... so that if I had found track 3 of an album or a playlist, it would queue all tracks from track 3 onward? ... sounds a good thing.
Having "a Play from here" option added to the right-click menu sounds like a great solution to this problem. So, if you type "hello" into search and choose a song, it continues playing the rest of the album, playlist or tree you're viewing, rather than a list of songs, artists or albums featuring "hello" (depending on which fields you've chosen to include in search).
Maybe I don't understand correctly, but if I use the "desktop search" (using Ctrl+F or clicking the magnifying glass) and type "massive" then I get albums, artists, playlists and tracks including massive. I can drag & drop the whole playlist (or album) to now playing list like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvitpe33d2912 ... 5.png?dl=0
to add it as whole (or right-click the album > Play Now)
So I don't understand what is missing there?

Hi, I think incremental search (typing in a view) is case sensitive when set to "scroll to matches". At least, it seems to be for me - are you able to reproduce?
I am not able to reproduce, I typed "tax" and it correctly scrolled into "Taxman" , so it is case insensitive for me, see:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5myb93rhtteq8 ... 9.png?dl=0
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:13 pm Maybe I don't understand correctly, but if I use the "desktop search" (using Ctrl+F or clicking the magnifying glass) and type "massive" then I get albums, artists, playlists and tracks including massive. I can drag & drop the whole playlist (or album) to now playing list like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvitpe33d2912 ... 5.png?dl=0
to add it as whole (or right-click the album > Play Now)
So I don't understand what is missing there?
FWIIW Sonos have a Play From Here behaviour ... it is the default tap action on a tablet style device (or double click on a PC) ... I think that it is mostly aimed at tablet style devices, where multi-track selection is either difficult or not available. ... The Sonos implementation only does this, when viewing a track list, which is filtered inside a container (ie. your are either inside an album or a playlist) ... otherwise when viewing an unfiltered library track list (ie. not in a container), just the track is queued ... in the Sonos implementation, Play From Here queues the whole container, but starts playing from the selected track ... ie. open an album, move cursor to track 3, and tap (or double click)... the whole album is queued, but starts playing from track 3.

Do the mobile devices, that MM is targeting, have a simple way of selecting blocks of tracks (ie. like shift click on a PC)? ... in MMA you have to individually tap each track to add it to the selection don't you? ... in this situation Play From Here makes more sense maybe

I don't have any use for this facility, but even on a PC, a Play From Here action would be easier than selecting a track block, and then using drag&drop

Ludek wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:13 pm I am not able to reproduce, I typed "tax" and it correctly scrolled into "Taxman" , so it is case insensitive for me, see:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5myb93rhtteq8 ... 9.png?dl=0
Try it the other way around ... the tooltip says that "Abc" is case insensitive
in "filter matches" search: I typed "Bird" (a constrained search, not the top right hand seach) ... it ignores the capital "B", and just searches on "ird" ... if I then go to the search box that opens in the tool bar, and correct this to "Bird", it is case sensitive ... ie. finds "Bird of a Wire", but not "The Yardbirds" .... in the top right global search, the opening capital is never ignored, but the search is still case sensitive. ... ? an error in the tool tip? ... it clearly says Abc is case insensitive.

In "scroll to matches" mode it is worse "Bird" finds nothing ... and "bird" ignores lowercase "bird" (or maybe it it ignores embedded "bird" as in "The Yardbirds" ... I have "search whole words only" deselected btw)
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Ludek »

Thanks:

I can replicate these now:
- in "filter matches" search: the first capital letter is consumed (not entered)
- in "scroll to matches" search: using capitals in the search term does not find nothing
Added them as items 10 & 11 here: https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 106#c52111

But in "filter matches" search no matter whether the 'Bird' or 'bird' or 'BIRD' is entered in the search bar it still results in the same 65 songs, are you sure that this isn't a test error? Otherwise yes, it does not find infixes, only prefixes of the words (i.e. the words beginning with bird)
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by Barry4679 »

Ludek wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:08 am But in "filter matches" search no matter whether the 'Bird' or 'bird' or 'BIRD' is entered in the search bar it still results in the same 65 songs, are you sure that this isn't a test error? Otherwise yes, it does not find infixes, only prefixes of the words (i.e. the words beginning with bird)
Testing error. .... when I saw sort config option for "Search Whole Words Only", I had a brain fade, and thought this turned infix matching on|off.

My first album in alpha sequence is "The Yardbirds Greatest Hits", where the double quotes are in the tag ... so I thought that I saw that "bird" was matching "Yardbirds"

Sorry confusion.

I was also confused whether I was in "filter matches" or "scroll to matches"

The MM5 Options panel does not protect any uncommitted changes ... ie. open Tools|Options ...navigate to Library|Search and toggle from "filter matches" or "scroll to matches" .... forget to press OK ... close the Options dbox via the top right "X" ... there is no warning seeking confirmation to discard uncommitted changes.

And there is some inconstancy: ie. Tools|Options go to Library|MediaSharing ... toggle the Server's Enabled checkbox ... and then close via the X ... go back, and the checkbox toggle change was persisted.

But the "filter matches"|"scroll to matches" setting in Library|Search is not persisted.
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by pbryanw »

Ludek wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:13 pm Maybe I don't understand correctly, but if I use the "desktop search" (using Ctrl+F or clicking the magnifying glass) and type "massive" then I get albums, artists, playlists and tracks including massive. I can drag & drop the whole playlist (or album) to now playing list like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvitpe33d2912 ... 5.png?dl=0
to add it as whole (or right-click the album > Play Now)
So I don't understand what is missing there?
Hi, apologies, I think I've done a poor job of describing this. However, the way search currently works in MM5 works for me now (especially with the upcoming fixes to both incremental & "desktop" search). I also think an "x" button in the "desktop search" field, would be great, that would be able to clear the current search (as Barry4679 first proposed).

Edit: Can be ignored - Also, I wonder if all user Playlists should show up as an option when you filter your search results like this https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArFVkgMSc1NUid45IcouKjKITbnfwQ. Could there be a Playlist -> "List of all the user's Playlists" item here?
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Re: A few questions about contextual search in a view [#15185]

Post by pbryanw »

Just wanted to say thanks for all the fixes to the "scroll to matches" incremental search in MM 5.0.0.2149.

It feels a lot more usable now, especially with the increased word/letter timeouts for slower typists like me (and CTRL UP/DOWN works great too). Thanks again :D
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