Update / Change the Skinning Engine

[CarlitoGil]

but you did say mediamonkey is the best organizer for music that is true, but you are wrong about its player not working for an all day player.

I was talking about the user expirience of MM as a Music Player with regards of it's graphics and layout design. Not that it didn't crash.

so you need to re think your posts and do some research on this forum before you open mouth and insert both feet.

What you need is to understand that just because you think you understand something doesn't mean you do.
That way you'll stop proyecting yourself onto others.

well you left it open to the line of thought that it was a crashing issue you were talking about..

Here is the quote of what I said

Although the UI keeps it form becoming a really good everyday Music Player.

How open do you think that is? The thread is about the skinning engine. Pay attention.

you still need to rethink and do searching on the forum before you post.

As I just demonstrated above that you are not the person to be giving advice on research if you can't even read words within the context of their sentences.

as to whether you think i am projecting my own thoughts on to other's, your wrong.

Thanks to you, I think now everybody who reads this knows it too.

this statement you said to nohitter151

Original is not, that is a fact.
For the sake of argument I'll say that in my opinion it's not professional looking

but I'll say this the professional looking is up to the eye of the beholder.

Wow, I thought I covered that saying "in my opinion"

and what do you consider professional looking?

There are guideline of graphic design which are ignored on that design. That too is fact.

all black with white outlines for the borders to see what you need to click on?

thats not professional looking in my idea. thats a cheap a... lazy way for a professional skinner to skin something because they were too lazy to do more images...

Wow, is that your argument? propose your bad idea as others and criticize it?
Just because you try to do thematic, concept themes because a functional, thorough, beautiful, universal design is out of your grasp doesn't mean other people have to praise it because you put a lot of work into it.
A good design is not about Gimmiks.
Thats more true in a audio player, and contrasts even more with the advance spirit of MM
Professional Skinner and Professional Graphic Designer is not the same thing.

you said in the original post that you thought there should be newer buttons

I did? We use quotes for that sonny boy.

also you said you tried to make a skin. you want a black style one. (as that is what the songbird one is)

I'll assume that's a question. By Songbird do you mean the skin for MM which is based on an early alpha/beta of Songbird or Songbird 1.0's default "feather"?
'Cause I'm always talking about the beautiful and not black latter one, research boy.
(I'm expecting to be called racist that)

there is the members skinning project skin still waiting for player skins. its a black theme skin. try making some images and sending them to a skinner to make the player for that theme, or make the player skin for that your self.

What makes you think I'm into black skins? Oh right, in your mind you give people your own characteristics.

[rovingcowboy]

that last post just shows you are not wanting to accept any form of post in the thread to which you have to generalize in theory of what was posted previously..

yes i was thinking you were talking about the feather skin.
as the one you liked.

no i was not putting my thoughts in your head i was reading your post.

you just seem to want to argue about something.
I've given you ways to get your skin wishes made
in to a skin, but you keep arguing.

lack of skill in art? you mean lack of good computer equipment to do art with.

no your not going to be called a racist what gave you that idea? oh its your i want an argument posting again.

[CarlitoGil]

that last post just shows you are not wanting to accept any form of post in the thread to which you have to generalize in theory of what was posted previously..

The problem is that your generalization is keeping you misinterpreting and misquoting me, and seems you need me to be clearer, when I think I'm being quite so.

yes i was thinking you were talking about the feather skin.
as the one you liked.

You see, that's an example. I asked you if you were talking about the MM skin called Songbird or the software called Songbird's one, but you answered about what you thought that I was talking about. Which does not clarify why you think Songbird is a black skin. The feather is not.

no i was not putting my thoughts in your head i was reading your post.

You keep giving me proof that you're not understanding them.

you just seem to want to argue about something.
I've given you ways to get your skin wishes made
in to a skin, but you keep arguing.

Just always up to it. Most of the replys I've gotten have been about bruised egos and misunderstandings. If you didn't expect a clarification then you are the one just wanting to argue.
If, and only if you've really read all the posts here, that may be burried in all the replys I've given to the ones I've gotten, then you wouldn't keep asking for a black skin and I would have taken your question about what I wanted as a serious one.

lack of skill in art? you mean lack of good computer equipment to do art with.

...No.
Are telling me your specs are too low?

no your not going to be called a racist what gave you that idea? oh its your i want an argument posting again.

Actually it was my way of not having them.
I was talking about a black skin not being beautiful, and the kind of olympic grade misunderstandings in this thread made me jokingly think of someone calling me a racist. I honestly I didn't expect anybody to really misinterpret that. Maybe is because I don't do smileys.


You really want me to take the thread back to it's true meaning? Let me compress some of my thoughts.
Read the next post.

[CarlitoGil]

I think MM is still using version 7 of it's skinning engine when 9 is out. Maybe some good fixes have been made.

If the layout of skins is going to have limitations by the engine, they should be because they have been decided as the right way and not some prolonged technical difficulty that everybody agrees as faulty. (Like the dreaded internal border, be it as it may, doesn't seen like such a challenge to fix)

MediaMonkey needs an official skin, THE image of MM. One that everybody likes. How? and Why? because of it's simplicity, universality, functionality and gimmiks free style. Space conscious and preserving design. Thoroughness for cross platform recognition. Little use of contrast for extended use without eye strain. Neutrality should be it's theme.

[Eyal]

Neutrality should be it's theme.

Neutrality should be your attitude.
Why don't you try to get a job at Apple's development center, I'm sure they will like your arguments...

Thake a look at this: http://www.mediamonkey.com/forum/viewto ... =3&t=37301

[CarlitoGil]

Neutrality should be your attitude.
Why don't you try to get a job at Apple's development center, I'm sure they will like your arguments...

hahahahahahahaha

[nohitter151]

A main focus of an upgrade should be the alpha channel transparency of icons which are limited to blocky images to keep the necessary one color transparency, and make them harder for better icon packs to be compatible with different color schemes.

Please get your facts straight, as icons already support alpha channel transparency. (I did already state this, BTW).

If you don't believe me just take a look at my VitreousBlue skin.

[CarlitoGil]

Nice, I'll remove that then.

Now that I've gotten to be corrected can the replys be constructive now?

[Vyper]

MediaMonkey needs an official skin, THE image of MM. One that everybody likes.

I've been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest but refrained from commenting because I'm not a skinner and our skinners took your comments personally, as they should have (just my opinion).

Anyway, I am curious how you can make the above statement. With the millions(?) of MM users, how in the world is anyone going to create a skin that EVERYONE will like? Common sense tells you that it's just not possible.

How? and Why? because of it's simplicity, universality, functionality and gimmiks free style. Space conscious and preserving design. Thoroughness for cross platform recognition. Little use of contrast for extended use without eye strain. Neutrality should be it's theme.

That would be just your opinion (which you are certainly entitled to). Personally, it would be extremely boring to me.


Back to the skinners now .....

[CarlitoGil]

Anyway, I am curious how you can make the above statement. With the millions(?) of MM users, how in the world is anyone going to create a skin that EVERYONE will like? Common sense tells you that it's just not possible.

Right, I said "one that everybody likes", I also said many other qualities that in any situation in life are not a 100% attainable, but are norths, ideals to aspire to, concept that define the idea for a skin that I'm proposing.
I think iTunes has a lot more users than MM, with a very broad demographic using and praising it's looks. User and professional critics alike.
I'd like to see MM with that kind of acceptance.
So my common sense tells me that it is possible. It's been done.
I concur with opinions in another thread of this forum about Songbird. Just as Firefox with IE, It will be number one.
Driven by the work of many people. Difference with MM? They believe it.
For final user looks are important, think about intuitiveness. Yet this software has in it's frontpage pictures of many skins for the same product, which I think is not optimum for marketing it.
Look at very successful players, winamp, iTunes, even WMP and Songbird and many others. They may have many skins, but create a great official one.
I love how MM gets around to "millions(?)" (Not sure about that) of users running on functions and macro-management capacities.
Myself, I use the not skinned mode because I do not come for looks. 'd like to, but can't.
My background in graphics makes me too much of a critic to bear not to come to the artwork forum and give my opinion/offend (potato, potatou)
Sure there can or should be great concept skins, but the default should be for everyone (is only "common sense" that "everyone" is not used in literally)

That would be just your opinion (which you are certainly entitled to). Personally, it would be extremely boring to me.

Of course. You too.
To me game menus are about graphics, a software which greatness comes from doing work like organizing vast libraries should have graphics as efficient as possible.
I fix the boring part with the music.
I'm a PC and I'm 7 years old, but the way Macs and it's software are designed is just gorgeous. Have you seen CS4 ? Now, that's software with a proprietary look that's thought to get thinks done.
These are not just trends in design, they are disciplines perfecting themselves.

[Dreadlau]

Gil,
Which skins did you try yet?

Generally what MM is lacking is a really good neutral skin, with every detail possible skinned. The MediaMonkey Skin.

Do you mean that they should hire a professional designer for it?

Are you using MM3.0 or MM3.1?

Recently installed 3.1.0.1222 beta to try some things
Why?

because there are some features of the recent skins that are only active when using the latest build( Like, for example, many new custom icons )

Nohitter did made an original design skin: Vitreous Blue.
And it has a clean and professional look. In a similar spirit as Ion but using the vista UI schemes.

Original is not, that is a fact.
For the sake of argument I'll say that in my opinion it's not professional looking

I always thought of the vitreousblue skin to be a professional looking skin. I mean it's simple and good looking. It's modern ( inspired by vista/seven ).

It would be nice if you could explain in details what are the things to change in the skins. maybe with screen shots(?)

Also I gave you a link in my first post in this thread where you can make wishes regarding the skinning engine.
Since you have tried to play a bit with it, maybe you could make specific wishes for the skinning engine.

I agree with some of the things you said

MM need a new default skin with every details possible skinned and a better skinning engine.

But for what I've read so far. This thread has not been constructive.

The critics you made are too general. So are the design guidelines you talk about.
It would be interesting if you would explain with more depth how they could be used for MM skinning.
Maybe also provide some links and reference to it(?)

[Dreadlau]

I think MM is still using version 7 of it's skinning engine when 9 is out. Maybe some good fixes have been made.

I wonder why mm doesn't use version 9.
But I think I red somewhere ( maybe I'm wrong ) that MM used a modified version of the theme editor.

So if someone could drop some info on that...

If the layout of skins is going to have limitations by the engine, they should be because they have been decided as the right way and not some prolonged technical difficulty that everybody agrees as faulty. (Like the dreaded internal border, be it as it may, doesn't seen like such a challenge to fix)

Maybe, but you should be aware that PetrCbr and the other devs are very receptive to users feedback. And that they try their best to meet their needs and requests.
They also post in this very forum to inform users.

I think it is unlikely that you could expect the same from the devs of other companies like Microsoft or Apple.

[CarlitoGil]

Do you mean that they should hire a professional designer for it?

Of course, we at BuggyDownDesign can offer our services...
Just joking.
Seriously, why not? If they have the means it'll be good investment.
Ask any adman, no matter how good/bad the product the presentation can make all the difference.
Maybe their business or marketing model isn't meant to be profitable, given all the free competition.
If they just mean to get by on a couple of golden versions maybe they'd do better making it open source.

I always thought of the vitreousblue skin to be a professional looking skin. I mean it's simple and good looking. It's modern ( inspired by vista/seven ).

It would be nice if you could explain in details what are the things to change in the skins. maybe with screen shots(?)

Sorry, won't do screenshots. I don't want to make the post about any one skin again. But when making a skin I would ask myself if a chain of balls is a good way to represent volume or if it'd be redundant making it like the star rating if it shows the percentage of volume. Or, could argue the pros and cons of putting a non togglable small now playing albumart in the main window where there's a better alternative. Or if light blue really works well inside the same space as black. Is the secundary titlebar too big when the main one's font is at least a point too big.
Most importantly, Does it seem whole? like no matter what element I'm looking at it's always the same skin.
Graphic designers have a mantra: Less is More. Can be tricky to implement, but man is it true.

Also I gave you a link in my first post in this thread where you can make wishes regarding the skinning engine.
Since you have tried to play a bit with it, maybe you could make specific wishes for the skinning engine.

I thought about it, some of the ones I'd ask for are already there.
Before starting this thread I was discouraged to make a list because I got the impression that some problems are beyond simple bugs, and that the whole thing needed the most recent version or customize a whole other new engine.
Have you notice the sloppiness when resizing the Music Explorer Tree, or how buttons sometimes disappear? Or how all too often the players get broken when not pinned to the bottom?
Just can't imagine I needed to point that out to developers. But some kind of radical change was needed.

Then came the issue of the tendencies in the skins which I have expressed myself about. Thing that I had the feeling would never change and couldn't bear.

But for what I've read so far. This thread has not been constructive.

Between every reply I've given I think there's an evident effort to be constructive but I often feel like the only one here.
Nevertheless, I think some thing that needed to be said have gotten to.

The critics you made are too general. So are the design guidelines you talk about.
It would be interesting if you would explain with more depth how they could be used for MM skinning.

To really, really get to that point, I'd have to be actively skinning, and it seems to me that good ideas for elements and layout for MM skins have to be thrown away because they just can't be implemented now.
To do that I'd feel like doing somebody else's job for a company's profit that I'm just not able to do.
When you design, when you draw, you need a concept that's specific, but you start from the general and work your way to the specific.
The tribute skin approach, so often used in MM is the opposite of that. You start with all the unknowns of the final look resolved, but the implementation gives you problems, that tend to make you end up with something that looks broken or incomplete.

By giving guidelines and opinions that may seem too general I'm trying to better the way Skins for MM get built from the ground up.
You need a good base. If you try to eat after you drank too much, you're just gonna barf. But if you prepare yourself right before, your friends won't be youtubing you.

Maybe also provide some links and reference to it(?)

I really hate home work

[CarlitoGil]

I think it is unlikely that you could expect the same from the devs of other companies like Microsoft or Apple.

Thanks appreciated. But companies like that could never handle the kind of feedback such a large user base would give in a channel like a single forum from everyday users.
I think their doing fine and getting better. That database is the fastest I've seen, how they implemented custom fields, been wating to try the ability to decide which fields are to be searched (read that's in 3.1), etc. Control all the way.
I just think UI is behind.

[rovingcowboy]

after all that i forgot who asked. but yes the skin engine is a modified version of version 7.

and gil the bugs you said in your last long post were known and have been worked on since they showed up they keep getting things fixed its just taking time. petrcbr is working hard at fixing/ modding the skin engine. he has got lots of things about it fixed from when it was first made.

agreed the ideas for skins just can't be done most the time in this way of making skins.

which is basically making a windows shell skin. and allowing links to other players like the mini / floating and the micro / task bar skins.

i think its the windows shell that is holding the skinning to this way of doing it. but to get rid of the shell would be to cause a massive code re write that could take 3 yrs. and would most likely loose most the best features of the software.

as for your liking connected player skins by having the same look. thats personnel likes. making different player skins look different from the main skin but still be connected can be done by use of themes. which is what i do when i do that. if you are thinking of the guitar skin i did and say its nothing like the main skin's theme.
thats where you are in error with that thought. the guitar the classical rock and roll design and the colors on it were there i did not put them there. i just blended them in to the main players skin and them skin.

the trucking one? i did the CB radio first then added the main player to match it.
but the theme is used there again also.

when you make skins for programs you like you got to work with what you got to use for skinning. as i said before Morten has got lots of ideas added in the the skin engine to bring it this far along. if you really dislike it now think of what it was like in the first version release of it. where no special features were in it at all other then the two extra player skins working with the main theme skin.

so its come a long way and still could get more repaired in it but some of the errors in it have been caused by adding different features so they got to fix them first.

that broken player skin when not docked locked is one that bothers me also.