Volume Leveling

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Not_tech_savy
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Not_tech_savy »

Zonky wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:23 am Still have no clue why this volume leveling does not work on MMA.

So, as a paid customer, both MMW and MMA, is it best to open a ticket to get this solved?
It could also be how the music was recorded. I'm looking for the article but it said something about how studios can master songs at a set decibel level but make it sound louder than it should. I'll post the article when I find it.
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Zonky
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Zonky »

This sounds reasonable, however, this technical issue should be covered by MMW volume leveling feature, correct?
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Peke »

Hi,
Zonky wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:02 am This sounds reasonable, however, this technical issue should be covered by MMW volume leveling feature, correct?
Unfortunately it is not as easy as it looks.

Over compressed and hammered audio files loose dynamics and that can't be reversed.

Compare left and right sound of this file and you will hear the difference.
https://www.filemail.com/d/foxyjpalkymbgfc

Graphic representation of problem both channels are at same playback level.
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Peke
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Zonky
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Zonky »

Peke, so is this an excuse for a non working feature within MMW or is this an explanation why this won't work with all possible tracks :lol: or maybe it's both :P

If this feature in MMW does not cover all possible situations, why not simply disable this feature, since this will always cause confusion at the users end?

I may be wrong, but before using MMA, I just copied all necessary tracks to a memory stick, using MMWs sync feature and adjusted the volume by modifying each track with, I guess it was MP3Gain. If I remember correctly, this way I did not notice any such differences in the volume level.

However, I don't want to go back using two tools to finish this task. I've purchased MMA to get a more convenient workflow to bring my MP3 files and playlist to my smartphone and not using any memory stick and 3rd party tools.
Not_tech_savy
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Not_tech_savy »

It works for most cases, but if it leveled everything it would ruin your music.
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Peke »

Zonky wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 7:57 am Peke, is this an explanation why this won't work with all possible tracks
If you listened the track both channels have same Volume levels, but one is compressed and second not. It as tech representation of issues with current production trends. i had similar discussion and I had chance to rip to same CDs one I bough in mid 80's and one that is 35 year anniversary (Top Gun Soundtrack [Limited 35 years anniversary Expanded Edition] CD) where ripped tracks were looked like in my example track 10 times worse than original CD/RIP.
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g9ujab
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by g9ujab »

So, I'm experiencing similar problems with volume leveling not behaving as I would expect, but I am confused about the most recent reply about compression. Why would you compress the signal in a track?

Let's say you analyze a track, with broad dynamic range, that is very quiet at some points but very loud at others. It seems to me that you'd want to ensure that the loudest part of the track would meet the desired target level (89dB, let's say). The quiet parts of the track should not be turned up, while the louder parts of the of the track are turned down (compressed). Instead the whole song should be turned down so that the maximum volume of the track does not exceed the upper limit. In this way, the original track is not distorted and the maximum volume is targeted at the preferred volume selected by the user.

The intent of track leveling is to eliminate the need for constant volume adjustment from track to track, not within a single track. If the intent were to avoid adjustment intra-track, then compression would be appropriate, but the intent, as I see it, is to limit the maximum volume from track-to-track, which requires a volume adjustment down or up, across the entire volume spectrum, which is not compression. No?
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Peke »

Hi,
g9ujab wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 pm So, I'm experiencing similar problems with volume leveling not behaving as I would expect, but I am confused about the most recent reply about compression. Why would you compress the signal in a track?
I am not compressing anything. Based on many CDs/Tracks/Albums I bought recently they are produced so that LOW, MID, HI frequencies in songs are maxed so that sound same without dynamics and silent parts of a song (eg. background violins have sound level like Vocal) so all tracks are 95db killing dynamics/energy of a track and waveform looks like square.
g9ujab wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 pm Let's say you analyze a track, with broad dynamic range, that is very quiet at some points but very loud at others. It seems to me that you'd want to ensure that the loudest part of the track would meet the desired target level (89dB, let's say). The quiet parts of the track should not be turned up, while the louder parts of the of the track are turned down (compressed). Instead the whole song should be turned down so that the maximum volume of the track does not exceed the upper limit. In this way, the original track is not distorted and the maximum volume is targeted at the preferred volume selected by the user.
That is exactly what studios do now in post production. All parts of tracks are on same level maxed level to the point of almost clipping. I want to have quiet parts to experience them in a distance and hardly heard eg. background violins should be in background quieter and not as loud as Lead violin.
g9ujab wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 pm The intent of track leveling is to eliminate the need for constant volume adjustment from track to track, not within a single track. If the intent were to avoid adjustment intra-track, then compression would be appropriate, but the intent, as I see it, is to limit the maximum volume from track-to-track, which requires a volume adjustment down or up, across the entire volume spectrum, which is not compression. No?
See compression definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression

Volume Leveling or Gain is only adjusting volume of whole track by Gain Index which will put loudest Volume level at same level with other tracks.

Here is comparison what they do now and I do not like:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_r ... ething.gif
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g9ujab
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by g9ujab »

Thanks for the detailed clarification, Peke. I concur that the over-compression of music releases is a problem for discerning listeners. I'm glad that MM's volume leveling does not meddle with compression. BTW, my volume leveling seems to be working nicely, when I stream to my Grace Digital Link 410F07 via BlueTooth. Alas, if I cast to the same device, using Chromecast (which offers better range and reliability) no volume leveling is apparent. Any recommendations for improving the Chromecast performance, or must I stick with Bluetooth?
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Peke »

Hi,
g9ujab wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:21 am Any recommendations for improving the Chromecast performance, or must I stick with Bluetooth?
Unfortunately no. Device should read Gain index of casted track. I suggest that you raise report to Grace Digital Link and poit taht while casting volime leveling Index is not applied.
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g9ujab
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by g9ujab »

Thanks.
Zonky
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Zonky »

I've got an open ticket for this issue which is lacking of any solution or at least an answer since January 27th or to be precise since December last year.

[Ticket #3375] Volume Leveling does not work as expected

So, please, is there any progress on any further investigation done to get VL on MMA with Android Auto?

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martin.bohac
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by martin.bohac »

MMA just provides tracks to Android Auto, so if volume leveling is not supported on Android Auto side, then it will not work and MMA can do nothing about it.
Zonky
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Zonky »

So I don't understand why a developer of MM already answered in the ticket and gave some information that he could reproduce this issue on his car infotainment and why is this option implemented in MMA if it does not work at all? FYI it does not work with Android Auto nor does it work with Android OS itself!

And what is really annoying right now: I've been waiting for an comprehensive answer for now over a month or so and now I get one line and the ticket is immediately closed!!!

Guess what: This is not the customer support I would expect at this time! Why did it take so long for this IMO simple and not accurate answer? I think you didn't want to investigate any further and just forget to answer my ticket in the meantime, right? :evil:
Zonky
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Re: Volume Leveling

Post by Zonky »

martin.bohac wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:30 am MMA just provides tracks to Android Auto, so if volume leveling is not supported on Android Auto side, then it will not work and MMA can do nothing about it.
Peke's answer in the ticket reads a bit different:
Unfortunately I have been able to replicate on Honda CR-V and found that MMA sends Volume index correctly to Honda, but Android Auto simply ignores track leveling index and that forced me to Level all tracks according to Index during sync.
So basically the issue is there and can only worked around by modifying each track upon the synchronization process from PC to smartphone. Synchronizing about 600 tracks and adjusting the volume each one is getting a time burner you know!
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