Media Monkey for High End Systems - what settings?

[LightMiner]

What settings should I use for driving a very high end audio system? I want bit-by-bit sending of the 24/96 downloads I have with absolutely no alteration of them in any way from Media Monkey to my DAC. While I'm not sure, and this may be for another reason, but at the least it feels like there might be 'loudness' on or something. (loudness being a slight bass boost for low-level listening.) But even ignoring that, I really just want it to send 100% unaltered signal to my DAC from the computer. I don't know if there are any menu items I should focus on.

You can see my system if you are curious at:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl ... 24971&view

Thanks,

Chris

[rovingcowboy]

turn off the equalizer in mediamonkey.
turn off the equalizer on your sound card.

set the speaker sound in windows multimedia settings to default.

all should be sent just as the file has then.

but with windows only able to say should be not will be.

[LightMiner]

For windows I have a sound card with bass and treble sliders that are greyed out, so that functionality doesn't seem to be operable so that is good.

If I double-click on the speaker icon on the bottom right of my computer and get to the "Volume Control" window those are all set to max (which is really '0', right? and lower is negative db?)

I'm not sure exaclty which screen you mean by 'windows multimedia' - tell me how you get there?

In Media Monkey 'enable equalizer' is unchecked, so that is off.

What about in MM / Options / Player / Volume Leveling. All of that should be off, no? I don't want any leveling! Death to compression! (I know it has its place, but that isn't on my stereo.) I unchecked "Level Volume Playback". "Clipping Prevention" seems to be in a 'don't do anything mode' when checked, and anyhow is inactive when Level Volume Playback is unchecked, so that should be fine. In the 'general' screen there I unchecked all three options, I don't want MM analyzing any tracks and doing anything to them.

On output Plug-Ins, I have two options: Primary Sound Driver and SigmaTel Audio. Both have several options, crossfade, remove silence, smooth pause, smooth seek, smooth stop, I don't think during 'steady state' playing of the music those have any effect, is that right?

Anything else to check?

[rovingcowboy]

multimedia in windows is in the control panel.
the out put plugins just control the sound on out put to the player. things like cross fade and smooth stop or seek.
just keep the sound blead together or fade it out when you have them selected. does not do anything to the file just how its played with monkey's player.
sound leveling in mediamonkey will adjust the files.
sound level anaylizing will see what is to be leveled in the file make that in the database and in the tag of the file.
but not adjust the file in any other way it is just used by the player when you have play sound leveling turned on. by the option on the play menu.

just two questions why don't you want any sound adjustments.? with out it you can get some strange humming from the computer wirering and clicks from the sound wav being played louder then is possible to have it played.
i know you want to send it to your stereo that is what i am doing also. only i use sound adjustments on mine, and send it through an fm transmitter to the stereo. i get great sound on it that way., why wouldn't you get great sound going the way you do to your stereo?

[Pete10]

Hi Chris,

What DAC and connection to DAC(optical, usb) you are using, and what operating system? Do you have a DAC that indicates the incoming datarate? That helps.

MM's 2 standard output plugins (DS & Waveout) both use Windows Kmixer. It should be transparent and can produce bitperfect results at 94/24, but there are some pitfalls, as already noted:
First set all volume levels at 100% (main + wave in mixer, and in MM), and set balance at 50/50. Do not use leveling, no DSP plugings, no crossfading.
Second, if you use a usb dac kmixer tries to find out what the dac accepts as input, and if MM delivers data at 94/24 to kmixer and kmixer has learned that this is an acceptable format for the dac it will not do anything to the stream. If you use optical to connect to the dac you should set the datarate in the soundcard's driver and hope the driver works as it should.
Note that other programs may also send sounds to kmixer. Windoes system sounds should be switched of. But if so, kmixer will convert all to the highest quality in your case 94/24. But mixing should probably be avoided.

Kmixer can be bypassed using an ASIO driver and plugin, guaranteeing bitperfect playback an no interference by kmixer. Unfortunately, MM can NOT do gapless playback with ASIO. This is - in my opinion - probably the biggest weakness of MM in the output field (foobar can do it without a problem it seems, so there is no reason).
Another option would be Steve Monks kernel streaming, but my computer freaks out if I try.

Let us know the results..

Pete10

[LightMiner]

multimedia in windows is in the control panel.
the out put plugins just control the sound on out put to the player. things like cross fade and smooth stop or seek.
just keep the sound blead together or fade it out when you have them selected. does not do anything to the file just how its played with monkey's player.
sound leveling in mediamonkey will adjust the files.
sound level anaylizing will see what is to be leveled in the file make that in the database and in the tag of the file.
but not adjust the file in any other way it is just used by the player when you have play sound leveling turned on. by the option on the play menu.

just two questions why don't you want any sound adjustments.? with out it you can get some strange humming from the computer wirering and clicks from the sound wav being played louder then is possible to have it played.
i know you want to send it to your stereo that is what i am doing also. only i use sound adjustments on mine, and send it through an fm transmitter to the stereo. i get great sound on it that way., why wouldn't you get great sound going the way you do to your stereo?

I'm on XP Pro, and in control panel (its in alpha order) I go from Keyboard, Mail, Mouse, Network Connections. Perhaps it is installed as part of a program? Oh and under Windows as a starting word I just have Firewall and Network Setup Wizard.

Interesting comment - I'm new to 'computer music' so I'll see if I get clicks and the such. The philosophy I'm using, given that I'm playing 24/96 from HDTracks and the such, as that the only thing the computer should do is send the bits to the DAC. If the computer changes anything, there is a darn good chance it will effect sound quality. On many systems that won't be noticeable, but on mine the tiniest change is clear (Supratek pre/Pass Labs Amp/Magnepan 3.6 ribbon speakers). Anything that anything does with a system like this unless its programmed at a very high level will much things up... I found some plugins that are from professional stuff that I might trust, for example, but they were very expensive and were for recording studios.

"does not do anything to the file just how its played" - yeah - I want nothing!!! Nothing done to the file or the bits. Until I hear hiss crackle and pop - and I believe you, just haven't heard it yet. Still getting up and running.

[LightMiner]

Hi Chris,

What DAC and connection to DAC(optical, usb) you are using, and what operating system? Do you have a DAC that indicates the incoming datarate? That helps.

MM's 2 standard output plugins (DS & Waveout) both use Windows Kmixer. It should be transparent and can produce bitperfect results at 94/24, but there are some pitfalls, as already noted:
First set all volume levels at 100% (main + wave in mixer, and in MM), and set balance at 50/50. Do not use leveling, no DSP plugings, no crossfading.
Second, if you use a usb dac kmixer tries to find out what the dac accepts as input, and if MM delivers data at 94/24 to kmixer and kmixer has learned that this is an acceptable format for the dac it will not do anything to the stream. If you use optical to connect to the dac you should set the datarate in the soundcard's driver and hope the driver works as it should.
Note that other programs may also send sounds to kmixer. Windoes system sounds should be switched of. But if so, kmixer will convert all to the highest quality in your case 94/24. But mixing should probably be avoided.

Kmixer can be bypassed using an ASIO driver and plugin, guaranteeing bitperfect playback an no interference by kmixer. Unfortunately, MM can NOT do gapless playback with ASIO. This is - in my opinion - probably the biggest weakness of MM in the output field (foobar can do it without a problem it seems, so there is no reason).
Another option would be Steve Monks kernel streaming, but my computer freaks out if I try.

Let us know the results..

Pete10

Right now I'm using a Beresford TC-7250 which is astonishingly good for the price. Competitive with Benchmark at 1/4 the price. I may buy an AlphaDac or Bryston depedning on how the year goes... Connection is via laptop docking station SPDIF then Blue Jeans cable to DAC. I will look more into this kmixer stuff! Thanks.

"It should be transparent and can produce bitperfect results at 94/24" - now that's what I'm talking about! With Reference Recordings HRx 24/96 there is no 'improving' the music, you want it untouched to the DAC. It is already as good as it is going to get before you download it. However, I understand if the computer adds crackle snap and pop or hum at a certain freq. etc., then getting rid of that makes sense.

[LightMiner]

I think if we come up with a set of standard or 'do this, do that' list for trying to get to completely unaltered sound output from MM, that might make a good sticky thread, or inclusion in the help menu or whatever. There are a lot of high end audio people starting to do this...

[Pete10]

Right now I'm using a Beresford TC-7250 which is astonishingly good for the price. Competitive with Benchmark at 1/4 the price. I may buy an AlphaDac or Bryston depedning on how the year goes... Connection is via laptop docking station SPDIF then Blue Jeans cable to DAC. I will look more into this kmixer stuff! Thanks.

"It should be transparent and can produce bitperfect results at 94/24" - now that's what I'm talking about! With Reference Recordings HRx 24/96 there is no 'improving' the music, you want it untouched to the DAC. It is already as good as it is going to get before you download it. However, I understand if the computer adds crackle snap and pop or hum at a certain freq. etc., then getting rid of that makes sense.

I see no reason why a computer should add crackle or hums. Digital interfaces / cables are designed to work error free, and are not sensitive to interference like analog signals can be (unless you really have a bad connection etc of course). If there is a hum then the DAC is probably creating it. Potential problems are:
- dropouts, if the pc is occupied with some badly programmed activity. This is very rare if the computer is configured properly (see the whathifi.com forum on computer based music for lots of interesting information).
- pops or gaps during track changes. MM has some options in the wave out plugin to adjust the read ahead buffer if this happens. Like I said MM+ASIO in not working re: gapless playback
- badly ripped damaged cd's (you may not find out until you listento it later, comparable to a scratched cd).
- problems of the dac locking onto the pc's digital out signal if the sound card/chip is flaky and not sending the data at the right clock rate, for instance. Good dacs have there own circuitry to reduce/eliminate jitter in the arriving signal.

[Lowlander]

that might make a good sticky thread, or inclusion in the help menu or whatever.

You can add an article to the Wiki.

[rovingcowboy]

multimedia in windows is in the control panel.
the out put plugins just control the sound on out put to the player. things like cross fade and smooth stop or seek.
just keep the sound blead together or fade it out when you have them selected. does not do anything to the file just how its played with monkey's player.
sound leveling in mediamonkey will adjust the files.
sound level anaylizing will see what is to be leveled in the file make that in the database and in the tag of the file.
but not adjust the file in any other way it is just used by the player when you have play sound leveling turned on. by the option on the play menu.

just two questions why don't you want any sound adjustments.? with out it you can get some strange humming from the computer wirering and clicks from the sound wav being played louder then is possible to have it played.
i know you want to send it to your stereo that is what i am doing also. only i use sound adjustments on mine, and send it through an fm transmitter to the stereo. i get great sound on it that way., why wouldn't you get great sound going the way you do to your stereo?

I'm on XP Pro, and in control panel (its in alpha order) I go from Keyboard, Mail, Mouse, Network Connections. Perhaps it is installed as part of a program? Oh and under Windows as a starting word I just have Firewall and Network Setup Wizard.

Interesting comment - I'm new to 'computer music' so I'll see if I get clicks and the such. The philosophy I'm using, given that I'm playing 24/96 from HDTracks and the such, as that the only thing the computer should do is send the bits to the DAC. If the computer changes anything, there is a darn good chance it will effect sound quality. On many systems that won't be noticeable, but on mine the tiniest change is clear (Supratek pre/Pass Labs Amp/Magnepan 3.6 ribbon speakers). Anything that anything does with a system like this unless its programmed at a very high level will much things up... I found some plugins that are from professional stuff that I might trust, for example, but they were very expensive and were for recording studios.

"does not do anything to the file just how its played" - yeah - I want nothing!!! Nothing done to the file or the bits. Until I hear hiss crackle and pop - and I believe you, just haven't heard it yet. Still getting up and running.

sorry its on the sound icon in the control panel in xp. that is were you find the speaker controls.

[LightMiner]

Great. More in a half week or so when I'll have more time to spend on this.

[Adveser]

I'm in the business and I don't mean to come off the wrong way here, but why even involve windows or any program in what you are trying to do?

I haven't checked myself and don't know if this exists, but shouldn't there be some kind of hard drive to DAC interface available? My mother has a very cheap and shitty Receiver (im talking everything in a box for $100 surround sound system) that one could plug an external hard drive to and it will read the data and play it back.

Again depending on what's out there, surely something to this effect is going to suit your purposes a lot better than using windows. If you must have a media library and everything and don't mind spending the money, why not find someone that will custom build a simple electronic device (very much like a PC) that extracts audio information based on extension from a hard drive and sends the data at the specified sample rate to the D/A. I'm not criticizing your choice in electronics, i'm just saying as easy as this stuff is to build I find it hard to believe no one is selling anything like i'm describing. I don't know a hell of a lot about D/C, but I assume they are using unamplified input, otherwise there's some other device along the signal path turning computer bits into digital audio and I thought the whole purpose for this kind of setup was to prevent the computer from handling the audio.

[rovingcowboy]

someone still has to put the info on the song tag and put the songs on the hard drive for that type of standalone unit to have songs on for the reciver unit to beable to pull off and play.

so if you have computer room why bother with the standalone? just put mediamonkey on the computer organize your song files and send them to the reciver from the computer. which is what that standalone would be anyway a computer. so why get another one.

[Lowlander]

but why even involve windows or any program in what you are trying to do?

Because you need MediaMonkey for it's capabilities. For playback this will be mostly centered around playlists, and Auto-Playlists can't be reproduced (only in static form).

I also wonder how much different a directly connect hard drive is from playing through a PC in quality.